Baby Reindeer (Netflix)

ZenGiraffe said:
Is duty of care even a legal concept in this instance? The show and Gadd did not name her, changed some details, and didn't encourage any searching for her. The only "proof" is that she used the phrase hanging curtains on a public platform, tweeted at Gadd.

I am not a lawyer, so I defer to our Moopy legalists, but I can't see it being a legal issue at all.
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Well, yes essentially this is just what I'm wondering out loud. If there isn't a legal duty of care could it be argued there's a moral one?

Tisch said:
(I suppose it's a "fictionalised" version of her, so that's different enough legally to not require anything like that)
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And if so, is changing the name enough? A lot of the other details seem pretty true to life from the scraps we know.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer tbh, but the more it goes on, the less it sits well with me. (While not trying to underestimate the suffering it caused him of course!)

I can't relate to someone stalking me, but the bit where she was commenting on every one of his old Facebook posts did bring some horrible triggers back to me :eyes:
 
ZenGiraffe said:
And if I was a convicted stalker, or advising a convicted stalker, I would have had my social media completely deleted day 1. That is outside the show's control, and why should Gadd not be able to tell his story because someone else isn't acting rationally
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I sort of agree, but you can't blame anyone for not realising your stalkee would one day write a whole Netflix series over the ordeal, or that it would be THIS massive!

It's not the same as choosing to going on a reality show without checking your tweets for horrible racist stuff from years ago...
 
ZenGiraffe said:
Is duty of care even a legal concept in this instance? The show and Gadd did not name her, changed some details, and didn't encourage any searching for her. The only "proof" is that she used the phrase hanging curtains on a public platform, tweeted at Gadd.

I am not a lawyer, so I defer to our Moopy legalists, but I can't see it being a legal issue at all.
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100% this. Her name was changed and she was portrayed by an actress.

HOWEVER, I am curious if a duty of care now stands since she’s essentially been outed. I suppose we will never know.
 
The trouble is it's her story as well as his. The story of how two people interacted can never be the sole property of one or the other.
 
I don’t agree with the X mob but (I know I’m simplifying things here) why would there be a reason to single out this case uniquely? There are stacks of tv dramatisations about actually named convicted protagonists who are still alive or free, no doubt some of them have had issues too. I don’t think a censorship on what drama and art can potentially cover is a good thing.
 
I watched the show. I enjoyed it.

But the aftermath of people wanting to play detective and jury is fucking disgusting and completely embarrassing. It’s a television show. You’re not involved in any of their lives. Just watch it and move on. The irony of sending death threats and stalking people on Instagram completely lost on them.

WHY ARE HUMANS SO FUCKING WEIRD
 
Still find everything about this show to be gross, cynical and exploitative. Sorry.
 
I Sat through 5(!) episodes in one sitting last night. Engaging doesn't cover even begin to cover it.
 
Is it big in the Americas Pipo?

I always wonder how these type of British phenomenons fare abroad. It’s not exactly Line Of Duty.
 
Funky said:
I watched the show. I enjoyed it.

But the aftermath of people wanting to play detective and jury is fucking disgusting and completely embarrassing. It’s a television show. You’re not involved in any of their lives. Just watch it and move on. The irony of sending death threats and stalking people on Instagram completely lost on them.

WHY ARE HUMANS SO FUCKING WEIRD
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Yep

Plus, it’s a resolved story? Much of this happened in the mid 2010s.

The fact that people need to play GOTCHA to this extent is just so bizarre.
 
floppet said:
I watched the first two episodes this morning and all I could take from it is that Richard is a vile human being. He lies and uses people and now he's probably making a shitload of money from this.

That's my opinion of him after two episodes.
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I felt the same at that point…HOWEVER(!!!) :D

Update us with your thoughts the more you watch!
 
floppet said:
Mr F has watched it all already, he says I'll change my mind about him. We'll see ...
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I think he gets worse as he goes on. They do a good job at making him sympathetic with his honesty that he’s not exactly an angel himself, but the continued bad life choices just get more irritating. He reacts wrongly to Martha at every possible moment.
 
Funky said:
I think he gets worse as he goes on. They do a good job at making him sympathetic with his honesty that he’s not exactly an angel himself, but the continued bad life choices just get more irritating. He reacts wrongly to Martha at every possible moment.
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The
sleeping with her to get it out of his system
was absolutely deranged behaviour at its finest.

I do think ultimately it shone a light at the complexity of his trauma though.
 
This was 100% the best series of the year so far. Outstanding performances all around.

I've followed Richard for a while now on Instagram and really wanted to see it at the Edinburgh Fringe in 2019 but never got round to it.
 
As well as now posting about it on Facebook (there've been many more posts since this morning), did we see that the real Martha gave an interview to the Daily Record?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/baby-reindeer-stalker-scots-woman-32673360

She compares herself and Gadd to Johnny Depp and Amber heard, where she is "persecuted like Johnny Depp" :eyes:

I hope Netflix have been in touch and are ensuring she has access to proper support. They have a duty of care, it's through their fuck up that she's been identified
 
IMG_7607.jpeg
 
I’m starting episode 4 and I’m nervous after all that’s been said in this thread :side-eye:
 
I didn't think it was that bad but then I had been warned many times so it probably reduced the shock of what was coming. As someone else said, his comedy shows were more difficult to watch!
 
It was pretty dire and was rough to watch. The comedy stuff was definitely bad as well. I found myself missing the Martha storyline.
 
Well without meaning to I binged the rest of the series tonight. The bit at the comedy competition was ROUGH to get though. Richard Gadd deserves all the awards for the last few episodes. Some parts were definitely triggering and, while I don’t think I’ll ever watch it again, I think it’s an excellent series overall.

I was watching the last episode just screaming GO TO THERAPY at the TV. When he went back to that apartment I was damn near hyperventilating.
 
I really enjoyed this- it was very good tv.

What I don’t understand, though, is all the stuff about protecting real life Martha etc- surely the conviction is a matter of public record, no? She was literally convicted of stalking him and his parents as named people. That was the actual charge. It’s got to be easily identifiable just from that?

The issue for me isn’t about the internet sleuths, it’s about the wild amount of publicity that it is now shining on an obviously mentally ill woman and where that might end.
 
Sheena said:
I really enjoyed this- it was very good tv.

What I don’t understand, though, is all the stuff about protecting real life Martha etc- surely the conviction is a matter of public record, no? She was literally convicted of stalking him and his parents as named people. That was the actual charge. It’s got to be easily identifiable just from that?

The issue for me isn’t about the internet sleuths, it’s about the wild amount of publicity that it is now shining on an obviously mentally ill woman and where that might end.
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If I am remembering an article I read last week correctly, she wasn't convicted of stalking him, that was made up for the show. In real life it stopped just before it got to that point.
 
ZenGiraffe said:
If I am remembering an article I read last week correctly, she wasn't convicted of stalking him, that was made up for the show. In real life it stopped just before it got to that point.
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Oh I hadn’t realised that.

Did the show state it was a dramatisation based on true story? I can’t remember the opening now but I thought the whole thing was true…
 
Watched the last episode this morning and my opinion of him didn't change, it worsened. He treated everybody like shit and is a massive user. Teri, Liz, the ex-girlfriend, all of them were kept around to bolster his own ego and for what he could get out of that situation at that time but he didn't really give a crap about any of them, definitely not poor Teri who I think is the one he treated the worst. He kept the Martha thing going because it made him feel important and he liked the attention. The two flatmates gave him a room and all he did was whine about their lifestyle, he could've moved out but chose not to. He kept the writer thing going despite the drugs and sexual assault because he didn't mind what was happening and thought he was going to get a nice job out of it.

And yes, I realise I'm in a very tiny minority (of probably one) here but I have no sympathy for him in any way. He's a perpetual victim and it'll always be somebody else's fault.
 
floppet said:
Watched the last episode this morning and my opinion of him didn't change, it worsened. He treated everybody like shit and is a massive user. Teri, Liz, the ex-girlfriend, all of them were kept around to bolster his own ego and for what he could get out of that situation at that time but he didn't really give a crap about any of them, definitely not poor Teri who I think is the one he treated the worst. He kept the Martha thing going because it made him feel important and he liked the attention. The two flatmates gave him a room and all he did was whine about their lifestyle, he could've moved out but chose not to. He kept the writer thing going despite the drugs and sexual assault because he didn't mind what was happening and thought he was going to get a nice job out of it.

And yes, I realise I'm in a very tiny minority (of probably one) here but I have no sympathy for him in any way. He's a perpetual victim and it'll always be somebody else's fault.
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I can see where this attitude comes from but he was blatantly suffering from serious mental health issues too and that can’t be overlooked.

And I’m sorry, I actually feel quite strongly about the suggestion he “didn’t mind what was happening” with the writer. Reframe that as a woman in an abusive relationship who keeps going back and no one would dare suggest he “didn’t mind what was happening”.

Also, he couldn’t move out of the flat- he had no money to and normal London prices are hardly easy for someone working in a bar. That was actually addressed.

Teri was a massive victim in this, I agree, but as someone confused about his sexuality, it’s a lot more complicated than just “oh he treated her like shit, so he’s a cunt”.

I absolutely agree he acted like a shit- but I think he acknowledged that. I’m defending him as I think it’s more nuanced than “he deserves no sympathy, he was a cunt” just as much as “Martha deserves no sympathy, she was a cunt”.
 
I would be fascinated to hear the perspectives of the real people who inspired Terri, the ex-girlfriend and the mum.
 
The treatment of Teri REALLY got me feeling all sorts of conflict. Ultimately I did still empathise for him but I found it so heartbreaking that Teri became collateral damage. Kind of.

I mean ultimately I think she ended up happy and he did not, but who knows. It was sad nonetheless and I felt very conflicted
 
Sheena said:
And I’m sorry, I actually feel quite strongly about the suggestion he “didn’t mind what was happening” with the writer. Reframe that as a woman in an abusive relationship who keeps going back and no one would dare suggest he “didn’t mind what was happening”.
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That's a fair point although a lot of those women are actually living with their abuser and stuck in the situation. My point is that he kept going back willingly for more of the same. He made a conscious choice every single time to go back to that flat when he knew what was going to happen.

I didn't say that he didn't deserve any sympathy from anybody, I said I had no sympathy whatsoever for him.
 
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